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And it has cleared the tower.
35 years ago, the 10th flight\h\h

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of Space Shuttle Challenger ended, when\h
it broke apart 73 seconds after liftoff.\h\h

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All seven crew members, five NASA astronauts\h
and two payload specialists,` were killed.\h

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We have a report from a flight dynamics\h
officer that the vehicle has exploded.\h

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On this episode of the Rocket Ranch Podcast, we\h
remember Challenger, her crew and their survivors,\h\h

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and how we carry forward the lessons NASA\h
learned with the director of the Apollo\h\h

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Challenger Columbia Lessons Learned Program.
EGS program chief engineer verifying no\h\h

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constraints to launch. Three, two,\h
one, and lift off. Welcome to space.\h

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Michael Cianilli is the director of\h
NASA's Apollo Challenger Columbia program.\h\h

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During our conversation, he shares how he was\h
received by the Challenger families, and how\h\h

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lessons learned from the Challenger accident still\h
affect people both inside and outside the agency.\h\h

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He also remembers, like many who were alive\h
then, exactly what he was doing that day and how\h\h

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the accident stayed with him when he eventually\h
started working for the space shuttle program.\h\h

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Mike, thanks for joining us today.
And Derrol, thank you so much for\h\h

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the invitation to be here. I appreciate that.
We'll talk a little bit about the program, your\h\h

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involvement in the NASA Apollo Challenger Columbia\h
Lessons Learned Program, in just a bit. But I want\h\h

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to start by going back to January 28th, 1986. What\h
were you doing? Where were you when it happened?\h

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Wow. It really brings you back. It was\h
35 years ago, as you mentioned Derrol,\h\h

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but it seems like it was yesterday in some ways.\h
I was actually a freshman in college. I was going\h\h

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to the Florida Institute of Technology, and as\h
circumstances would have it, as a freshman I\h\h

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just had got out of a physics test; and I stepped\h
outside and I'll never forget the moment I did.\h\h

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I stepped outside and almost simultaneous\h
with that, another student came up to me\h\h

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and mentioned, "Look in the sky. Look in\h
the sky. The shuttle had exploded." I says,\h\h

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"Don't ever joke about that." That was my\h
first... And I was pretty upset, I remember, of\h\h

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somebody even suggesting that. It just got to my\h
core, and I chided him for saying such a thing.\h

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And I remember walking from there over to where\h
we picked up our mail as students and thinking\h\h

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about that, saying, "How could somebody be\h
that callous to say something like that?"\h\h

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not really realizing. And then perhaps\h
once walking in the mail room, I heard\h\h

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they had televisions playing, and you could\h
hear the comments being made of contingency\h\h

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forces being deployed and things like that. And\h
that's when I really, the pit of my stomach,\h\h

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something was wrong, so I ran at full speed from\h
the mail room back to my dorm room to get to the\h\h

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television set, which I could watch personally.\h
And then that's when I first saw the images.\h\h

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And I think, once again, I can join millions of\h
other folks, I think I sat in stunned silence\h\h

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of just not fully taking a grasp of what had\h
happened and praying that your eyes are deceiving\h\h

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you and this is exactly what just happened.
And that's what it was for so many people.\h\h

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It was uncertain at first. But in the end, as you\h
mentioned, seven lives loss: Commander Francis\h\h

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Scobee; Michael Smith, the pilot; Mission\h
Specialists, Ellison Onizuka, Judith Resnik,\h\h

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Ronald McNair; and of course the two payload\h
specialists, Gregory Jarvis and Christa McAuliffe,\h\h

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the teacher. I want to continue with your story\h
for just a moment and find out, you eventually\h\h

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went on, graduated, and then went to work for NASA\h
in the space shuttle program. Did you carry that\h\h

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tragedy with you when you joined NASA in any way?
That's a great question. I think there was\h\h

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something that was really, and again, probably\h
many other folks could say the same thing, is\h\h

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it was really indelibly marked in my\h
brain. It was a moment in time that you\h\h

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never forget. And I remember when I did have\h
the honor to join NASA, to come to Kennedy\h\h

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Space Center and work on the space shuttle team,\h
that's something I never forgot. And I know during\h\h

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the processing of the different vehicles,\h
on the vehicles when they ready for launch,\h\h

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and the launch countdowns, you never forgot\h
that. I never forgot those moments of Challenger.\h

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And I think it also had a distinct influence\h
on some of my decision decision-making,\h\h

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as I'm sure it did many others, on making\h
sure that you're making the right decisions\h\h

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and that if any pressures are being applied,\h
externally or internally, to be really careful\h\h

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and mindful of that and remembering back to the\h
lessons of Challenger. And that's a challenge,\h\h

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as every year goes by, we mark these solemn\h
milestones, and now at the 35th anniversary\h\h

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of this event in American history, it's even\h
more important, I think in some ways, to\h\h

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really make sure we remember those\h
events, remember them accurately,\h\h

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so we can take those lessons learned\h
and really reflect upon them.\h

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And now you're part of this program called the\h
NASA Apollo Challenger Columbia Lessons Learned\h\h

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Program. What is that, and\h
what does it seek to do?\h

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So, this thing kind of organically\h
progressed, and you spend your career\h\h

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learning the engineering aspects and the lingo\h
and how engineering sees the world, then I had\h\h

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the honor to be in the ops world, as a NASA\h
test director, an LRD, a land recovery director,\h\h

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and you understand better how the operations\h
world approaches launching and processing.\h\h

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And then moving into more of\h
the safety world, seeing how\h\h

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the safety aspects are... And I say that because\h
there's really, as all of us in different careers,\h\h

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different disciplines, they see the world\h
differently. Right? How engineering sometimes see\h\h

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things is a little bit different. It's almost like\h
an accent for a language. It's the same language,\h\h

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we're launching the same rocket, but we have\h
different perspectives and viewpoints at times.\h\h

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So, I think it's important to\h
see the whole operation together,\h\h

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in this case a launch activity, from the different\h
points of view, perhaps understanding what the\h\h

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concerns and thoughts are and the vantage\h
points that those different disciplines are.\h

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So, the attempt is to put those\h
different viewpoints together,\h\h

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focused on a program called the Apollo\h
Challenger Columbia Lessons Learned Program,\h\h

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and really look back at our major accidents and\h
incidences, which is Apollo 1, 1967, Apollo 13,\h\h

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space shuttle Challenger and\h
space shuttle Columbia losses.\h\h

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And in addition to other near misses, as well,\h
and the good times. We could learn also from\h\h

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the good flights. But taking a look primarily\h
at the four times we've had major incidences,\h\h

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and really going back and looking what were the\h
catalysts, what were the contributing factors.\h

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So, we look at those, and it's not just, Derrol,\h
from a historical perspective, it's really from\h\h

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a perspective of understanding them because, as we\h
all know, history has a habit of repeating itself.\h\h

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And if we're not careful, we're certainly able to\h
fall prey to the mistakes and errors of the folks\h\h

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that came before us. So, we want to make sure that\h
we learn from the missteps we made in the past,\h\h

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and then as we're going forward and doing our\h
operations today and into the future, if we\h\h

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see those warning signs, if we see similar things\h
starting to happen, we can use history as a guide\h\h

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and say, "Okay, it's time to stop or to maybe\h
revisit decisions, or looking at things so we can\h\h

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make those alterations and course corrections so\h
we don't follow that same path in a negative way."\h

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And who are you sharing\h
these lessons learned with?\h

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Well, that's the exciting part. The easiest\h
answer is one word, and that's everyone.\h\h

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The program focuses on different areas.\h
So, we certainly want to make sure that the\h\h

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NASA team and our contractor partners and our\h
commercial partners that are coming on board,\h\h

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that we strongly share this with them, so it\h
becomes ingrained in the culture. Because we're\h\h

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all working together, even if it's commercial.\h
These days, NASA is ingrained with our great\h\h

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new partners, so we want to make sure that\h
we're sharing this with all of our partners\h\h

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in the aeronautics and astronautics fields.
What's interesting in the last couple of years,\h\h

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there's been really a large amount\h
of interest coming outside of NASA.\h\h

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And even outside of aerospace altogether. And\h
it's a wonderful opportunity for us in the NASA\h\h

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world to share these lessons to industries as far\h
field as the maritime industry, sports industries,\h\h

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oil and gas, energy, medical industries, and other\h
ones. And it's amazing how much synergy there is\h\h

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between, how many connections we can make between\h
what we do launching rockets and doing high-tech\h\h

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research, and share that with organizations\h
that may do something completely different,\h\h

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but the core components can be transferred\h
so they can learn from our missteps\h\h

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and hopefully have greater mission success\h
and save lives in their endeavors, as well.\h

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But in other industries that you\h
say you are sharing this with,\h\h

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you're able to make these lessons come across.\h
Wouldn't they be saying, "Well, I don't have any\h\h

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lives on the line, how does this apply?"
Yeah. No, you're exactly right.\h\h

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I find it very interesting because when either I\h
reach out or an organization reaches out to me,\h\h

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the first initial phases I always\h
find very interesting because\h\h

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it's the seeking of common ground. And just\h
like you said, you may think initially,\h\h

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when you talk to the medical community and say,\h
"Boy, you're in medicine, we're in launching\h\h

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rockets, what's the connection?" But then when you\h
dig a little deeper, it doesn't take very long,\h\h

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the connections become very apparent.
So, I'll give you a quick example for that.\h\h

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When you look at, say, a surgical team in an\h
operating room, and you look at the surgical\h\h

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team that has high stakes, you have a patient\h
that's counting on them to save their life,\h\h

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you have very quick decision-making, very\h
likely little room for error in your technique\h\h

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and execution of your tasks. You have a very\h
close knit team of nurses and doctors and other\h\h

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professionals in the operating room that have to\h
work together seamlessly and as a cohesive team,\h\h

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where communication is paramount. If\h
you take that environment, Derrol, and\h\h

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you match it up to a firing room for a launch\h
activity, you almost have a carbon copy. You have\h\h

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a team with high performance. You have a team that\h
has perhaps different disciplines or tasks in that\h\h

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room, but they're all coming together for the\h
same goal, which is launch the rocket successful.\h\h

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Communication is essential to be clear\h
and crisp and all understand each other.\h\h

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And you have to have a great team dynamic.
So, when you start peeling back and\h\h

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take off the, maybe the jacket and the\h
tie in the firing room, and take off the\h\h

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lab coat or the doctors uniform, it becomes\h
the same experience. So, our lessons\h\h

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really reflect very closely to what those folks\h
deal with as well, and I say that because when\h\h

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you looked back at the Rogers Commissioner Report\h
for Challenger, when you look back at the Columbia\h\h

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Accident Investigation Board Report for Columbia,\h
or even the Apollo 204 Report for Apollo 1,\h\h

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there's so many examples throughout the reports\h
where folks just didn't connect the dots. People\h\h

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misunderstood in some ways what the other team\h
or person was saying. Perhaps they thought the\h\h

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information was just information. It wasn't asking\h
for an action to be done, or take it further.\h\h

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It's just making sure are we on the same page,\h
because you'd be surprised how many times we just\h\h

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sometimes miss it by a little bit, and\h
that can have catastrophic consequences.\h

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You know, it's interesting to see the lessons of\h
challengers still being learned today, but the\h\h

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challenger accident is now actually back in\h
the public awareness, I think, a lot due to\h\h

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the recent Netflix documentary Challenger: The\h
Final Flight, which is the title of it. Did you\h\h

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see that? And what were your thoughts about it?
Yeah. I certainly did. And what was amazing to me,\h\h

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of course, as we talked a little earlier, I\h
had a personal connection watching the launch,\h\h

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and many of the folks listening, perhaps have\h
very direct connections to it and could be\h\h

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anywhere in the world listening to it. So, we all\h
had a connection to Challenger in some fashion.\h\h

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But there's also, Challenger's at the 35 year\h
anniversary milestone at this point, so there's\h\h

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a lot of folks that are working in the space\h
program and alive today, that just, honestly,\h\h

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weren't alive during the Challenger accident.
So, being it personal to me and others,\h\h

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I think what was very interesting for me was\h
watching the comments that came out of that\h\h

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Netflix documentary and seeing the tremendously\h
high level of public interest in the Challenger\h\h

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story and learning about the crew and learning\h
about the mission and learning about the lessons.\h\h

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That really impacted me, Derrol. It made even\h
more committed to saying, "We really have a\h\h

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responsibility to share these lessons learned\h
with these folks that weren't perhaps around,\h\h

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either working or born at that time, and we need\h
to share those lessons effectively so they can\h\h

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take them and become even better and greater\h
than the generation that came before them."\h

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I can imagine that really helps with your overall\h
mission. I want to shift over to the astronauts,\h\h

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because I know as you do this, you have to have,\h
or you have had, a cooperation and a relationship\h\h

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with some of the survivors, the family\h
members, the loved ones of the Challenger 7.\h\h

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Tell me, what can you tell me about\h
how they're doing now 35 years later?\h

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I certainly can. I've had a lot of honors in\h
my career that I'm very, very thankful for,\h\h

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and one of the greatest, if not one of\h
the greatest honor of my career, has been\h\h

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to have had the honor of meeting and getting\h
to know all of the Challenger families and\h\h

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Columbia families and Apollo 1 families. About six\h
years ago now, I had the honor to lead the agency\h\h

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in creating what we call Forever Remembered. It's\h
the nation's and the agency's memorial to the\h\h

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fallen crews of space shuttle Colombia and space\h
shuttle Challenger. And through that experience,\h\h

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it was a very emotional experience, right?\h
Because you want to make sure you're paying\h\h

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the greatest honor and tribute that you can\h
to these heroes and friends and colleagues,\h\h

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and you also have to make sure that you're\h
telling the story as accurate as possible.\h

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And through that experience, I had the absolute\h
distinct honor of working with the families\h\h

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closely, and one thing that I can share with\h
you that surprised me through this process,\h\h

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they gave back to me so much grace and so much\h
healing back towards me, that I didn't expect\h\h

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that. And it goes to just how absolutely amazing\h
these families are. I could spend days telling\h\h

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you stories. But suffice to say what they still\h
gave back to me, what they gave back to NASA,\h\h

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and what they gave back to the American people\h
and the world in sharing very difficult stories,\h\h

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very, perhaps, difficult poignant reflections\h
about their loved ones back to us,\h\h

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with the purpose of making sure that they're still\h
giving, they're still giving of their loved ones\h\h

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even though it may be difficult, they're still\h
sharing those stories, they're still going through\h\h

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those reflections so we can learn from them\h
and we can take those lessons learned to be\h\h

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more safe and successful. So, that unbelievable\h
generosity and graciousness with which they did,\h\h

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was honestly just humbling to the whole process.
Wow. And I can only imagine, right? Because such a\h\h

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difficult thing to do to go through. Thinking back\h
to the Challenger documentary and June Scobee's\h\h

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part in that, you just... And all of the family\h
members, but she had a prominent part of that,\h\h

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and it's very difficult and powerful at the same\h
time. So, it's fascinating to hear that they\h\h

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handled that with such grace, and it's\h
impressive. Because I imagine, like anybody\h\h

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who goes through tragedy or loses somebody very\h
dear to them, that the pain is always there.\h

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And that's true, and you can feel that. I think\h
when you see June, and is a wonderful speaker\h\h

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she is in her family, a speaker that I think all\h
of us could hope to be as good one day. Right?\h\h

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But you can feel the pain and you could feel\h
that, and you can feel it with members of the\h\h

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NASA family today. And I sense it when I have the\h
honor to go out and speak around the country or\h\h

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I speak at the Kennedy Space Center or virtually\h
now, and I engage with folks, and you can feel it.\h\h

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The families, still, are impacted by it.
And one of the things I'll mention quickly,\h\h

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as well, which I love the experiences when I have\h
the honor to go out and speak, and you finished\h\h

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with your presentation, your speech, you come off\h
stage and sometimes for some folks lined up that\h\h

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want to share some things with you. And I love\h
that experience because in so many cases, Derrol,\h\h

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what the folks want to share with me is where\h
they were, what they were doing, and what impact\h\h

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it had when Columbia or Challenger was lost.\h
And they want to share that. And in many cases,\h\h

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these folks don't have any direct connection\h
currently to the space program, perhaps never did,\h\h

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but they feel so strongly connected to these\h
seminal events in history. They feel impassioned\h\h

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to share those stories with me, which I always\h
feel honored to hear, and what it meant to them.\h

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And that just reminds me, all of us in the space\h
program have a duty to do our job the very best,\h\h

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because it's far beyond a job, as we know, we're\h
given the responsibility by the American people\h\h

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and their hard earned money to do the very best\h
we can to advance American interests in space.\h\h

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And that's a big responsibility, and when things\h
don't go the way we want them to, it has a very,\h\h

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very strong in potentially negative impact on\h
other folks. And they're also, it hurts them,\h\h

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and they're victims as well, in some cases.\h
So, we want to make sure that we have a lot of\h\h

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responsibility for the crews, for the families,\h
but also the folks that entrust us with so much\h\h

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responsibility, and make us even more impassioned\h
that we learned the lessons and do it right.\h

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That's such a great point, Mike, that all\h
of the people who are touched and affected\h\h

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by the mission that we carry forward is so\h
important to get it right. And that leads me\h\h

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to my last question, which is even now, there\h
is schedule pressure. We're going to the moon\h\h

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in a few years. We're currently going back, and\h
we have an exploration program and it's exciting.\h\h

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But we're trying to hit certain dates. Do you hear\h
from people at NASA about that schedule pressure?\h

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Well, my hope is, what I try to do is create\h
an environment with a program that people feel\h\h

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comfortable speaking up. And what's very helpful\h
with the program as well, Derrol, right to your\h\h

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point is, be it in NASA or even outside, but this\h
case, as your question was inside, when you can\h\h

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share the past and show how missteps were made\h
or how certain cases' schedule pressure or other\h\h

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considerations came into being, or had influences\h
on the overall system, when you can share those\h\h

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and when you're talking to folks, a couple things\h
can happen. Right? In some cases, you'll see folks\h\h

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listen intently. Sometimes folks will nod their\h
heads and say, "Wow, that's happening to me."\h\h

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Right? "I sense that's happening to me." And you\h
want that environment because you want folks to\h\h

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share. When you look back at the accident reports,\h
you'll see everyone, you'll see there's a number\h\h

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of people that did not feel comfortable saying\h
something at the time, either had an intuition,\h\h

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had a feeling something was going to happen\h
based on their experience and judgment,\h\h

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but perhaps didn't do something\h
with that, for a host of reasons.\h

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So, we want to create an environment saying it can\h
be very difficult to step up and say something,\h\h

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especially when you don't have all the facts,\h
because in real life, we often don't have...\h\h

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right? And life is a gray area pretty much,\h
right? The black and white is easy to deal\h\h

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with in all of our lives. Right? We can do that\h
pretty well. But I think most of us live, in all\h\h

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of our different lives, home and work lives, it's\h
a gray area. Right? There's the nuances of life.\h\h

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And that becomes the harder part to navigate\h
through. So. We try to share with folks our\h\h

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reflections of the past and really get into the\h
Challenger launch decision, Colombia decisions,\h\h

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and say, "Here's what was presented.\h
Here's what the folks had to go on,\h\h

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and here's why sometimes making the right decision\h
can be very hard." Because you can have folks see\h\h

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from different perspectives, so it's really hard\h
to be observant of that and be cognizant. You've\h\h

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got a tough job and your job is to get as good\h
as you could to do your job as best as you can.\h

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And I think that's the incredible value of\h
this program, is to keep these lessons learned,\h\h

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top of mind, not only for inside NASA, but also\h
outside of NASA. So, thank you so much, Mike.\h

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Derrol, thank you so much for the invitation, and\h
we invite everyone to interface with the Apollo\h\h

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Challenger Columbia Lessons Learned Program.\h
It's for everyone. And I'll end with this,\h\h

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is there's a propensity or potential way\h
of looking at it through a historical\h\h

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lens. It's a historical story. In this case, it's\h
Challenger, an event that happened 35 years ago,\h\h

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and a reflection of that. And I would humbly\h
suggest perhaps a different way to see that.\h\h

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Instead of looking at it as entirely an event\h
historically that happened, I see the Challenger\h\h

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story as much a future story as it was a past\h
story, perhaps even more so of a future story.\h

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And what I mean by that is the lessons\h
that the crew can still provide us,\h\h

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the lessons for the mission and the teams that\h
launched and experienced this. These are real\h\h

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lessons that apply equally today to programs\h
such as Artemis coming on board through all of\h\h

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our commercial providers and industries around the\h
nation and the world. They're as relevant today,\h\h

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if not more relevant, than they were 35 years\h
ago. So, it's really a future story. We're\h\h

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excited about taking these lessons and applying\h
it to real time and future projects and programs.\h\h

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Please make yourself known, and we're happy\h
to collaborate, and all go forward and do\h\h

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great things.
Keep up the great work,\h\h

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and thanks for coming on the Rocket Ranch today.
Thank you so much. It's been an honor.\h

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A special thanks to Michael Cianilli, director\h
of NASA's Apollo Challenger Columbia Program.\h\h

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If you'd like to contact him, well\h
just send us an email at KSC-newsroom,\h\h

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that's N-E-W-S-R-O-O-M@mail,\h
M as in Mary, A-I-L.nasa.gov,\h\h

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or leave a comment on our Facebook post\h
about the 35th challenger anniversary.\h\h

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You can find that on our official\h
Facebook account under the name\h\h

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NASA's Kennedy Space Center. And to learn more\h
about everything going on out here at KSC, go to\h\h

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nasa.gov/Kennedy. And give our other NASA podcasts\h
a listen if you have the time. Find out what's\h\h

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happening at all our centers at nasa.gov/podcast.\h
A special thanks to our producer, John Sackman,\h\h